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shuman
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 6:35 pm 
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Picture quality looks definitely better than GVI release.
IW version looks stretched (horizontally) giving a cropped look (from both left and right side).
Looks slightly better than what Media Dimensions usual authored disc. Any word on who the author is?
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sknath
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 6:59 pm 
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And a picture in a Force-weave Mode...Showing the combing artifacts

Image



Edited By sknath on 1038169374
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ali
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:16 pm 
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More full size screen shots from the DVD - thanks to Arsh;

Menu shots;

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Ali



Edited By ali on 1038165813
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ali
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:18 pm 
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Image

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Ali
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ali
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:27 pm 
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This screen shots says it all really;

Image

... YRF DVDs have used this on many occasions to excuse the poor quality of DVDs. IW & Canadaflix have done the same.

Ali :baaa:
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shuman
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:32 pm 
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yes ali.. i was thinking the same.. but didn't want to say the obvious.
i was afraid i would have to take the word back on what i said earlier about the possible source.. now we all see what is what.. the colour is dull to me.. the actual size images looks more like what media dimensions disc..

by the way canadaflix link isn't working.. i mean the author link.. and doesnt' look like angoor is<s>n't</s> available on CX yet.



Edited By shuman on 1038166401
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sknath
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 8:29 pm 
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Okay folks I have made up my mind... I wont be keeping this DVD with me .... will wait for the second version to come out !
Kshitij I hope you are watching this space :) ...
I guess swearing has failed..so let me plead...
For the sake of Hindi DVD quality ...give me (and millions of other other fans of ANGOOR)....the real DEAL from this film... I really want this dvd now ....
Help me here pls. :(
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Canadaflix
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 8:34 pm 
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Above screenshots are taken in the weave mode which is the wrong way to play this DVD. Since the source is interlace it needs to be played in Bob mode (DVD Player automatically selects the correct mode if you don't force the weave mode). What BOB does is play the content at twice it's frame rate and each frame is displayed in only one of the fields. This makes the image appear to BOB up and down a bit and in the process it eliminates the streaking you saw in the above screenshots. Following are the screenshots obtained by playing in Bob mode.

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Canadaflix



Edited By Canadaflix on 1038172653
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ali
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 9:22 pm 
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Image

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Are these shots from the same DVD? They look different, has Canadaflix adopted the faddy approach to screen shots?

Ali :sus: :oo:
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sknath
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 9:39 pm 
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Canadaflix wrote:
Above screenshots are taken in the weave mode which is the wrong way to play this DVD. Since the source is interlace it needs to be played in Bob mode (DVD Player automatically selects the correct mode if you don't force the weave mode). What BOB does is play the content at twice it's frame rate and each frame is displayed in only one of the fields. This makes the image appear to BOB up and down a bit and in the process it eliminates the streaking you saw in the above screenshots. Following are the screenshots obtained by playing in Bob mode.
Canadaflix

Kshitij and as a counter arguement ... I would like to add this :-
The whole meaning of a DVD is that I "EXPECT" to see a film on a digital media and not a Video source from my DVD media ( In that case I can very well be satisfied by my VHS copy)...

How One watches the film is upto them. You have said that this film should be watched in the BOBbed technique. Fine but u forget something... I will have to encounter something called Flickering, as a result of upsampling from a PAL to an NTSC transfer (which I presume has been done for this DVD as well).

Some notable examples of such DVDs would be
Hum Kisise Kum Nahin
Yaadon Ki Baraat (both Eros-B4U titles)

So its like choosing the devil and the deep sea.... which makes it all the more pertinent that all DVDs... without any exceptions should be encoded progressively !

-----
As for Ali's comments and the Faddy-style of presenting Images.... Kshitij u are the best person to answer that question... :) I doubt it if you can imitiate that style though !
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Canadaflix
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 9:44 pm 
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Hi Friends,

I think it's time to clear up a few things - don't you think?

First, as you see from the initial set of screen shots, the source we have used is far far better than the pirated source.

Second, yes, I have confirmed that this DVD got produced in Interlaced, not progressive format.

Third, let me provide the readers with complete information, so that they are able to make an informed opinion about this so called "quality issue".

The screen shots you saw posted with combing and other artifacts are ONLY visible if you capture single frames and FORCE WEAVE on a COMPUTER only.

Also, TV and DVD technology is BUILT to have some artifacts - which are visible on a frame by frame basis but are not visible if you watch a DVD normally on a TV. Video on DVD is recorded in MPEG-2 - which introduces losses and artifacts by the very nature of the technology.

If I were to watch the DVD on a regular TV (big or small) at home, I will NOT see those artifacts or the combing.

If you have an HDTV, or a computer, in 99% of the cases you will STILL NOT SEE those artifacts or combing, IMHO. And the reason for that is, my understanding is that computer DVD player software today is advanced enough to reconstruct the 24fps that the film was shot in.

Similarly, even if you are using an HDTV, unless you are using a DVD player that is not capable of progressive output, your player is able to ignore the extra fields by looking at a flag that is embedded in the MPEG-2 stream, and therefore providing output that has the film like 24 fps to the TV.

In other words, unless I am trying to WATCH progressive output using a DVD player that is NOT capable of progressive output and I am using an expensive HDTV and a cheap DVD player, I will NOT see this combing and artifacts!

And therefore, those of us who watch this movie on a regular big screen or small screen TV, or even on a computer using WinDVD or other similar software, will NOT SEE the artifacts being shown here.

What we will see is a high quality reproduction of what the Director wanted us to see in the first place, in the best possible view that your TV and DVD player are capable of displaying, and that the human eye and brain are capable of comprehending.

So let's relax, sit back and enjoy this wonderful movie!

Thank you for your time. No offense is meant to anybody.

Kshitij Kumar

PS: And please stop looking for the author, you are reading his post right now! :;):
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ali
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 9:46 pm 
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Canadaflix wrote:
Above screenshots are taken in the weave mode which is the wrong way to play this DVD. Since the source is interlace...

Why is the sourced interlaced? When you have gone to great lengths to make this DVD, to quote:

Quote:
However, we went back and got another high quality Digital tape made from the original film source in India (a very painful and expensive process). This one was then transfered using very expensive Vector Based equipment to NTSC and using high quality encoders to MPEG-2, in order to maintain the quality to be the same as you would see on the Film source.


Quote:
The Digital source I was talking about getting from India is Digibeta - which is made directly from the 24 fps Film source and only contains the movie recorded in the best possible Digital Format. All Indian movie DVD makers have to get their source Digibeta from India.


.. this is not "recorded in the best possible Digital Format" - most people will read past your marketing hype to see that this DVD doesn’t do much things right in what is expected from the DVD format. Yes it is better than the GVI DVD, which by no means is great achievement. I think you’ll find many will be disappointed by the quality of this video transfer.

If you have spent much money on the DVD getting this kinda of result - mate, you got ripped off!

How is the sound on the DVD (without the marketing bullshit please)?

Ali :baaa:
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sknath
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 9:51 pm 
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There is one more problem with subtitling these films...
Look at the scene :-
"Which brother-in-law" got the job..the younger one...
I think the dialogue goes like this :-
Sanjeev Kumar - "Kis salley (a$$****) got the job"
The other guy :- The younger one...

A literal translation in these case actually spoils the fun for any non-hindi viewer !
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sknath
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 10:04 pm 
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Canadaflix wrote:
Also, TV and DVD technology is BUILT to have some artifacts - which are visible on a frame by frame basis but are not visible if you watch a DVD normally on a TV. Video on DVD is recorded in MPEG-2 - which introduces losses and artifacts by the very nature of the technology.

If I were to watch the DVD on a regular TV (big or small) at home, I will NOT see those artifacts or the combing.

Kshitij You have made some claims here which I would like to challenge...

Video on DVD is encoded in MPEG-2 which introduces artifacts but those artiafacts are totally different. They are primaliy the the so called :-
1.) Blocking artifacts due to the use of the DCT (discrete cosine transform) as a transform tool
2.) Blurring artifacts (due to insufficient bit-rate information for transmitting the motion vector information)

Generally the 1st kind of artifacts are visible if you encode the DVD at a really low bit-rate (which is why MPEG-4 is now the buzzword as it uses Wavelets, and something which I am also using in my research work)...
I can tolerate the second kind of artifacts as research needs to be done to determine what is an acceptable bit-rate for reducing the blurring in fast motion sequences.

Pls read my previous post where I talked abt the differences of watching the movie in a BOB and WEAVE mode...on TV's or on ur computer screen. There wont be any difference in the picture quality, if the source you have used is a film source and encoded progressively... Otherwise you will have the problems listed above.
If you have a PAL source then it is pertinent that a PAL dvd should be made and not converted to an NTSC format DVD as that introduces the so called Flickering artifacts...(which is again based on insufficient research ..an ongoing research work)

Quote:
If you have an HDTV, or a computer, in 99% of the cases you will STILL NOT SEE those artifacts or combing, IMHO. And the reason for that is, my understanding is that computer DVD player software today is advanced enough to reconstruct the 24fps that the film was shot in.


This really surprised me :O .. Are you sure abt that ?.. A software DVD player is not a "smart" dvd player. It is a dumb DVD player (like all the other progressive and interlaced DVD players out there in the market). It reads whatever information is encoded in the DVD file stream. So if you have encoded garbage info in the file stream it picks up the garbage and hence screws up the entire display.
What you are referring to are the really High end systems which (in one of our discussions I had mentioned ) are able to identify those garbage frames and reconstruct the frames progressively at 23.97fps. Thus all present generation DVD players will not be able to do that and what I will get is what has been shown in the previous screenshots...
The so called COMBING artifacts !
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shuman
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 10:30 pm 
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Canadaflix wrote:
If you have an HDTV, or a computer, in 99% of the cases you will STILL NOT SEE those artifacts or combing, IMHO. And the reason for that is, my understanding is that computer DVD player software today is advanced enough to reconstruct the 24fps that the film was shot in.

would i be wrong to guess you dont have an HDTV? i have played interlaced and progressive dvd on my computer... and i do see the artifacts or combing for interlaced DVD.

is angoor encoded any differently than any other interlaced dvd that i wont see the combing on my computer 99% time. (i by no mean being sarcastic to you.)

by the way, How is the sound on the DVD (without the marketing bullshit please)?
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