This problem lies with movies released post 1994 and before 1999. This is when the 'Indian sound revolution' started. Most films released before this period were in mono so no point talking about those. A handful of films pre-1994 or during 1994 were released in magnetic 4 track stereo(MPK-1989) and optical stereo(Andaz-1994) but they are not important since these prints were probably never used for the dvds anyway.

http://www.zulm.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4564&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=hero&start=45

I've noticed that when reviewing older titles from Shemaroo , Arsh and Rana mentioned in the post above about true 5.1 and pseudo 5.1. Although the distinction between true 5.1 and pseudo 5.1 is fairly obvious, some films however have never been released in the digital sound format in the first place, so having a 5.1 channel of the same film on dvd is bullshit, it is a fake 5.1 derived from the optical 2.0 track from the print. To the purist (me) it is not true 5.1. I rather have a Dolby Stereo mix which I can play in Dolby Pro-Logic more accurately on my system.

For example Judaii was released in cinemas in 1997 with only a Dolby SR print. So if a dvd is made and claims it is in Dolby Digital, it is still fake 5.1.

The first non dubbed Hindi movie to be released in DTS was Judwaa. It was released in 1998 and paired with a mono track. So if the dvd claims it is in DD 5.1. True it is in 5.1 but it is mixed for DTS not Dolby Digital. It is like "Dhoodh Mein Pani Milana". Not authentic enough for me. Fake 5.1. Unless it is released in DTS on dvd.

Nowadays you can get software from the internet to mix a stereo track into Dolby Digital. Even DTS can be mixed into Dolby Digital on your computer. I just prefer the one done in the studio by H.Sridhar or a professional and not some clueless guy at the dvd factory.

One of the first few films released in both DTS and Dolby Digital was Arjun Pandit.

There were other films which were released in generic optical stereo (I heard them in stereo in the theaters) but they were very few. Most were mono. Unlike in Hollywood where films if released in digital had a analog stereo track on the same print, In India however some of this films were released in digital sound backed with mono track on the same print.There were a few films released in DTS stereo but I remember Duplicate as one of them. IMDB states Yugpurush as DTS-Stereo but I don't trust IMDB. A lot of the technical information there is inaccurate.

Not an exhaustive list but I wrote this mostly from memory so forgive any inaccuracy.

____________________________________
1942 - A love story (1994) Dolby Stereo
Bandit Queen (1994) Dolby Stereo
Rangeela (1995) Dolby Stereo
Hum Aapke Hain Kaun (1994) Ultra Stereo
Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge (1995) Dolby SR
Trimurti (1995) Dolby Stereo
Ram Shastra (1995) Dolby SR
_____________________________________
Daraar (1996) Dolby SR
Drohi(1996) Re-release as Dolby SR
Ghatak (1996) Dolby SR
Jeet (1996) Dolby SR
Khamoshi (1996) Dolby SR
Saza-E-Kala Pani/Kalapani (dubbed) (1996) Hindi Dolby SR/ Tamil DTS
Loafer(1996)Dolby SR
Maachis(1996)Dolby SR
Prem Granth(1996)Dolby SR
RajKumar(1996)Dolby SR
Hindustani(dubbed)(1996) DTS
Jaan(1996)Ultra Stereo
Mr Bechara(1996)Optical Stereo
______________________________________
...Aur Pyaar Ho Gaya (1997) DTS
Aflatoon (19997) DTS
Bhai(1997) DTS/Dolby SR
Border (1997)DTS/Dolby SR
Chachi 420 (1997) DTS
Daud (1997) Dolby Digital
Deewana Mastana(1997) Dolby SR
Dil To Pagal Hai (1997) Dolby Digital
Gupt (1997) DTS
Hameshaa (1997) Dolby SR
Himalay Putra (1997) Dolby SR
Ishq (1997) DTS
Judaai (1997) Dolby SR
Koyla (1997) DTS
Lahu Ke Do Rang (1997) Dolby SR
Lav Kush (1997) DTS
Mahaanta (1997) DTS
Mere Sapno Ki Rani (1997) Dolby SR
Mohabbat (1997) Dolby SR
Mrityudaata(1997) DTS/Ultra Stereo
Pardes (1997) Dolby SR
Saat Rang Ke Sapne (1997) Dolby SR
Sapnay (1997) Dolby SR
Virasat (1997) Dolby SR
Ziddi (1997) DTS/Ultra Stereo
Zor (1997) Dolby Digital
_____________________________
Bade Miyan Chote Miyan (1998) DTS
Bade Dilwala (1998) DTS
Bada Din (1998) Dolby SR
Barood (1998) DTS
Chhota Chetan (1998) DTS
China Gate (1998) DTS
Dil Se (1998) DTS
Doli Saja Ke Rakhna (1998( Dolby SR
Duplicate (1998) DTS Stereo
Dushman (1998) Dolby Digital
Gharwali Baharwali (1998) DTS Stereo
Ghulam (1998) Dolby Digital
Jab Pyar Kisi Se Hota Hai (1998) Dolby SR
Jaya Ganga (1998) Dolby SR
Jeans (1998) DTS
Kuch Kuch Hota Hai (1998) Dolby Digital
Mehndi (1998) DTS
Pyar Kiya To Darna Kya (1998) DTS
Satya (1998) DTS
Salaakhen (1998) DTS
Soldier (1998) Dolby Digital
Yugpurush (1998)?? can't remember
Wajood (1998) Dolby SR
_____________________________________
Arjun Pandit (1999) DTS/Dolby Digital
Baadshah (1999) Dolby Digital
Biwi no 1(1999) DTS
Dillagi (1999) DTS
1947: Earth (1999) Dolby Digital, I don't remeber a DTS mix
Gair (1999) Dolby Digital
Godmother (1999) Dolby SR
Hello Brother (1999) Dolby Digital)
Hote Hote Pyar Hogaya (1999) Dolby SR
Hum Dil De Chuke Sanam (1999) Dolby Digital
Hum Saath-Saath Hain: We Stand United(1999) Dolby Digital/DTS
Hu Tu Tu (1999) DTS
Jaanam Samjha Karo(1999) Dolby SR
Jaanwar (1999) Dolby Digital
Lal Baadshah (1999)DTS
International Khiladi (1999) Dolby SR
Kaun (1999) DTS
Kohram: The Explosion (1999) Dolby Digital
Rockford (1999) DTS
Laawaris (1999) Dolby Digital
Mast (1999) DTS
Mother 98(1999) DTS
Pyar Koi Khel Nahin(1999) Dolby SR
Sangharsh (1999) DTS
Shool (1999) DTS
Silsila Hai Pyar Ka (1999) Dolby SR
Sirf Tum (1999) Dolby Digital/DTS
Suryavansham (1999) DTS
Thakshak (1999) Dolby Digital/DTS
Taal (1999) DTS/Dolby Digital
Vaastav (1999) DTS

After this it didn't matter most films were in Dolby Digital, DTS or both. Thankfully this problem is no more today unless it is a super cheapo production. Most films today are released in both DTS-ES and Dolby Digital -EX mixes with a backward compatible Dolby SR track on the same print. So dvds more or less follow the original mixes. or at least I hope so.

First of all there are several errors in the list posted by you. I can, off hand see several movies that were in Dolby Digital that you have not listed as such. Secondly, converting DTS to Dolby Digital does nto require a new mix, all it requires is the data to be rencoded with a DD encoder, thus it is certainly not a pseudo (fake) 5.1 mix unlike quite a few Video Sound, Eros, WEG.... dvds released earlier on. Even if a movie is released in Dolby Digital and DTS both, there is still only one mix prepared by the Sound Engineer it is post mixed tracks that are put thru the DD/DTS encoders to get their respective tracks. A mix being in digital or analog also has nothing to do with 5.1 sound. According to you a DVD like Koyla has fake 5.1 sound but that is not correct. The 5.1 digital tracks were simply re-encoded with a DD encoder and you have as a result a fabulous DD 5.1 and by no means a fake/pseudo 5.1 DVD of Koyla. I would have liked to elaborate more on this, but unfortunately I don't have the time right now.

By the way, having the Dolby Digital logo on a DVD does not signify 5.1, it only means that the sound has been encoded in DD which could have any of the following number of channels '1.0/2.0/3.0/4.0/5.0/1.1/2.1/3.1/4.1/5.1' DTS on the other hand always will be either of the two 5.0/5.1 while DTS-ES will always be 6.1

Arrey yaar, you posted while I was still editing

Possible but I have checked most of the titles plus this list was started in 1996 when I very interested in this! I used to buy Screen magazine, write to Dolby and Real Image to check which films were in which format. Of course I might have omitted some titles by mistake. Could you point out which one though?




Not really, although this is becoming rare but many Sound Engineers including both Hollywood and Bollywood like to experiment with the two formats. Some prefer DTS and some DD. One film can have two different mixes by two different Sound Engineers.In Hindi films, H. Sridhar used to only mix in DTS as he preferred, the Dolby Digital one was done by someone else. Of course it is not different when encoding but in treatment. I am talking about the directors and sound engineers vision therefore I prefer the film the way it was intended in that particular format when I watched in the theater. Why do you think English dvds have two audio formats on one title? When I used to work as a projectionist, believe me, I watched Gladiator in SDDS, DTS and Dolby Digital in theater using the same print. Of course that can never be recreated at home but with the Gladiator dvd at least it is close to that.



I meant by analog=Dolby SR, Digital meaning DD or DTS. In that sense both analog and digital are different. They can never be the same.





I agree if it the same mix then theres no difference whatsoever if a DD mix is used from the original DTS mix. However it is the encoding and decoding that makes the difference. The compression for DTS is less than DD, DTS has much better sampling rate, better frequncy and dynamic range. DTS is encoded at a higher bit rate compared to DD. For that reason I prefer a DTS mix to be reencoded as DTS on dvd. A Dolby Digital mix as Dolby Digital 5.1 on dvd. A Dolby Stereo mix as Dolby Surround. I am a purist like I said At the end of the day I still want to hear what I heard in the cinema. If an original DTS theatrical mix is encoded into DD 5.1, I think it is a hell of a compromise.

Similarly I rather watch a good Dolby Surround than a fake 5.1 derived from the optical 2 track.



Of course I'm strictly talking about movies which are reencoded to 5.1 on dvd from non 5.1 source. E.g Dolby SR to Dolby Digital 5.1. I prefer the original unless it is the director's intention like on Hollywood dvds. An example again will be the Legend dvd which has the following sound formats on the dvd.
Dolby Surround (Theatrical),
Dolby Digital 5.1,
DTS 5.1,
Dolby Surround (Director’s Cut)

The dvd still has the original mix and two ones both in DTS and DD as well, all approved by the director. Of course I don't expect Hindi dvds to go that far...but still it would help if they were half as good.

I used the term Pseudo 5.1 when it's not directional 5.1 but all 5.1 speakers are active. It could have been mono or stereo. It's a waste of disc space to record 5.1 channels where only one or two channels exist. If we want all speakers to be active, we always can push the switch in our system to send same audio in all channels.

In some cases, it's possible to get some kind of distinct 5 channel audio from true stereo recording. Plus, one always can separate out low frequencies and may be boost a bit more to channel it into .1 channel. This will then be Modified 5.1 (or reprocessed) and not true 5.1.

What we get mostly, is mono sound sent to all 5.1 channels. This is Cheater 5.1 and not true or even modified 5.1.

-------------------------

BTW, good topic and very useful info.

Keep it coming.

I know what you meant Rana. I was just using it as an example. The Pseudo 5.1 you are saying is like playing a mono movie. You can hear vocals leaking in the surround. an example will be Josh And Jungle dvd by Eros. But those are faults created by dvd makers.

The original mix of the movie is what I'm talking about, the way it ends up on dvd. I was saying that a Dolby SR track should not be converted/mixed to 5.1 on dvd and an original DTS 5.1 movie soundtrack should not be used as a DD5.1 soundtrack on dvd.

For example Judaii was released in Dolby SR only and if the dvd features DD5.1. Then I consider it a fake 5.1.

It is my understanding that the sound engineers in HW mix the 5.1 soundtrack uncompressed (with no thought about DD or DTS or SDDS) and then that track is encoded into the various formats. Directors may have a preference (I believe Spielberg and Universal have a vested interest in DTS), and DTS is widely considered the best theatrical sound system. But what codec is used for the DVD has no connection to the theatrical format.

BTW, Dolby Digital was referred to as Dolby SR-D early on. They're the same thing.

What format is listed for Koyla in the end credits?

Like I said movies in mid-90's were only in one format. Some were digital and some were not. At this point of time, a lot of emphasis were on the sound. So most filmakers were still experimenting. Like Sanjay Gupta was so excited about Dolby SR in Ram Shastra and Ram Gopal Varma who experimented from Dolby Stereo to Dolby Digital to DTS, changing format with every film.

I think Hollywood works a little different in some ways. I don't think Indian dvd companies sought for the original uncompressed mixes. I believe this is derived from the prints itself, digitized into six tracks and then synched after the telecine. So if you have a print with only Dolby SR and a DTS CD-Rom, you would take the DTS one to be transferred. Of course using the codec after that depends on the format AC-3 or the propriety DTS codec that you choose. But technically you are using a DTS mix transferred to DD 5.1. Nowadays you don't have this issue because most films have DD5.1 printed on the print itself.





That's true. But are you referring to Dolby SR? Dolby SR stands for Dolby Spectral Recording. The difference is that it provides greater noise reduction than the Dolby A-type system. Dolby SR is used with Dolby Stereo which is 4 channels of audio but Dolby Stereo alone uses Dolby A-type noise reduction system. I've compared both in the cinema. Dolby A is horrible.




Only DTS. I remember very well. Mixed at Real Image India.

That's not quite true Sanjay, I've watched Independence Day on DD, then SDDS. The sound mix was vastly different with completely different pans across speakers. Of course, this was 8-channel SDDS, so the mix would have been inherently different, but I'm quite sure certain filmmakers choose to have completely different mixes for different formats like DD and DTS. However, to me, having a DTS cinema mix presented as DD on DVD is perfectly acceptable.

On the other hand, if a film was released in Dolby Stereo (SR or A type), I wouldn't want a fake 5.1 mix on a DVD. Gimme the 2-channel original tracks to be processed through a Pro-Logic system any day.

I'm confused now.
After a few enuerries, AMC theatre chain told me that they are not equipped with Dolby Digital (their standard is SDDS and also have DTS) and films with DD are presented in back-up Dolby SR-D that gives only Front Speakers sound (directional Left, Right and Center). I have yet to hear any sound coming from rear speakers when film is shown with Dolby SR-D. I have seen the difference between a DD presentation and Dolby SR-D presentation for the same film at different theatres.

There's nothing to be confused about. I'm sure they meant back-up Dolby SR (not Dolby SR D, which essentially means a print which contains both digital tracks and and analog optical ones for backup). Dolby SR means Dolby Spectral Recording. This is a process and playback system for optical analogue theatrical sound (Dolby Stereo) that eliminates noise from optical tracks, which without a system like SR or A would be very noisy.

The confusing term Dolby SR D is no longer used by Dolby.

Also, Dolby SR, which regular analog 4-channel Dolby Stereo (just like Pro-Logic), DOES have a mono-surround channel. This channel however, has a limited frequency range and most films tend not to have very obvious surround effects for their SR mix.

Thanks for clarifying Aryan.

Yes, AMC must be using back-up analog track which must be giving Dolby SR sound.
You said, Dolby doesn't use the confusing term "Dolby SR D" anymore.
But, AMC does.
They list sound as "SR-D" instead of "Dolby SR"

Dolby SR is not SR-D.
SR-D is the old unofficial term for Dolby Digital.
Dolby SR is a product of another era altogether.

Guys
a few things first,no film is EVER mixed for dolby or DTS or SDDS.These are just sound release formats.

what any film sound studio makes is a 6 channel or 8 channel print master which is mix down from over 200 tracks used in the sound mixing process.

so 8 or 6 channel master depends on the studio,this master tape which is a made from a pro tools session generally at 16 or 20 or 24 bits resolution,which is locked to the picture is sent to either dolby or DTS or SDDS to encode and make final printmaster for theatrical release in any on e or all of the formats..It is finally intergrated on the print negative at the color lab.

In india only real Image in chennai can make the DTS theatrical discs for all the films released in India.

In india we did not have the capability to encode DTS for movie sound till judwa though dolby 70 MM magnetic and dolby 4 track since many years and ultra stereo and dolby SR were around during the time of rangeela ,the procedure for multichannel theatrical release to make the 6 channel print master and have a dolby stereo fall back track which is created from the also from the 6 channel master, by compressing the dynamic range of the recording use a dolby SR matrix encoder to make a Lt Rt matrix stereo track or the dolby SR track as it is known,on film. Which is the plain prologic equal in the HT world.Also PL has mono surround which is limited to 7khz freq response,and all other high frequecies are cut off .

Also SR-Digital and AC-3 are the old names for dolby digital as we know it today.SDDS has eight channels which include a centre left and centre right,but a 8 channel SDDS will also play in a dolby digital theater in 5.1 ,but not vice versa.

dolby A type dolby stereo and dolby SR are all analog formats on film.

Now on to DVD
what happens is the audio master which is used for the theater release is sent ver to the DVD facility,this may be in any format which the prodcuer gives,he may give a stereo tape of a 5.1 mix if the 6 channel master is not there or spoilt.

this 6 channel master tape is slightly adjusted for HTheater as a theatrical mix would sound way too shrill for home use,and then time locked with the video and fed through either a dolby or DTS encoder in the DVD authoring software ,which makes the dolby and DTS audio streams for DVD,the number of channels which are to be enocded can also be controlled here. As far as i know nobody uses 8 channel SDDS for home ,though for a DTS-ES discrete 6.1 release yu will need a 8 channel master tape.


coming to Psuedo 5.1 ,i agree in some case it does spoil the sound,but it does remove a lot of the inherenet loudness and compression in the audio track by spreading it over 5 channels,also what i do for shemaroo or old films,i set my DVD or reciever in yur case to downmix mode to 2 channel which recreates a 2 channel mix well enough..

also DTS is always 5 and above channels but dolby varies for 1.0 to 5.1 and the cover packing does not say this all the time.

Wasn't Indian/Bharateeyudu/Hindustani released in DTS in Tamil, Telugu, and Hindi before Judwaa?

HAHK had an Ultra-Stereo track. The Eros-DEI DVD had a 4.0 soundtrack. I don't know if the surround on the DVD was full bandwidth.

Lakshmant, I forgot about you! Thanks for your edifying post.