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sknath
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:11 pm 
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arsh wrote:
Its COMBING yaar!! showing, field averaging of some sort applied here! IMHO! I dont have this DVD either, may be another GURU can double check his copy for u..

Hafner... awaiting your opinion for Shots 2 & 3 (after we "Plebians" have discussed it, we seek ye opinion :D )

Arsh miyan thats not combing. The whole movie is error free, but for extremely fast moving sequences as well as some sequences which are filled with those BLOCKY patches which mask out objects on the frame !

Combing is present extensively in Sahib Bibi Aur Ghulam (another DEI release)
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DragunR2
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:21 pm 
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What are these horizontal streaks? Looks a lot like combing.
Image



Edited By DragunR2 on 1048548441
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Zoran009
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:34 pm 
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If u have TAAL< Prog, sp edition, 24fps, and see same kinda combing, if u try to create it really hard..Every one with TAAL prog, anamorphic version, check ur dvd and tell me then..

it is problem with ENCODING!!!
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sknath
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 1:34 am 
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Wow.. someone has been really Cleaing out "the garbage" here :) (Thanks to that noble soul !)

Dragun, Like I said, that is combing indeed. But if you notice something, there are only 24 fps between two time intervals, which indicates that this is a progressively encoded disc.

Hafner, sometime back had mentioned that combing might occur in progressively encoded DVDs if the telecine operation was badly done (is that Roght Hafner ?)... Get this DVD and watch it in its entirety, You will see what I am talking abt.

Rana why dont u check TAAL and report it here. It will help us
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Zoran009
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:02 am 
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[Rana why dont u check TAAL and report it here. It will help us ]Hmm!! LOL, ask Hafner to check, Taal, he reviewed TAAL, calling it AS BAD AS IT GETS, PROG, VIDEO LOOKING TRANSFER? I am sure!! Hafner will be able to PRODUCE simillar shots from TAAL, sp edition , he has!

Me, for sure, saw Combing in TAAL with 24fps transfer!!! :baaa:

Ok!! rana ji!! you r the MAN TO RESCUE! here! : :oo:



Edited By arsh on 1048561225
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DragunR2
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:51 am 
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sknath wrote:
Look at the First 3 shots....

1.) Double images for the man in the hat

2.) Block making out Pran's face

3.) Same thing as 2.

The big block in those first 3 shots appears to be at the same spot in the frame. Is that somehow significant?

Quote:
For the dance sequence, notice how Bindu's hand's have completely disappeared in some shots and reappeared in the others !


On the Iruvar thread I mentioned that I saw the same Missing Limb Syndrome on another DVD, and I noticed other signs of excessive DVNR, so my guesstimate is that it DVNR causes that, like Mhafner has said. Is that first screenshot in the middle of a fast camera pan?
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DragunR2
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:55 am 
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sknath wrote:
Look at the First 3 shots....

1.) Double images for the man in the hat

2.) Block making out Pran's face

3.) Same thing as 2.

The big block in those first 3 shots appears to be at the same spot in the frame. Is that somehow significant?

Quote:
For the dance sequence, notice how Bindu's hand's have completely disappeared in some shots and reappeared in the others !


On the Iruvar thread I mentioned that I saw the same Missing Limb Syndrome on another DVD, and I noticed other signs of excessive DVNR, so my guesstimate is that it DVNR causes that, like Mhafner has said. Is that first screenshot in the middle of a fast camera pan?

Mhafner, can combing be seen on a progressive DVD, even if the disc doesn't fall into video mode for a few frames?
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DragunR2
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:05 am 
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I found the following newsgroup posting about 24p DVD switching to 60i for some parts (from our very own Mhafner :) )

Quote:
Message 3 in thread
From: Michel Hafner (mailto:mhafner@dial.eunet.ch)
Subject: Re: WARNING: Criterion Eisenstein defective


View this article only
Newsgroups: alt.video.dvd
Date: 2001-06-07 06:52:36 PST


John DeGroof wrote:
>
> On Thu, 31 May 2001 15:03:52 GMT, Michel Hafner
> <mhafner@dial.eunet.ch> wrote:
>
> >If you watch your DVDs progressively and don't like motion
> >artifacts you won't be happy with the new Eisenstein discs
> >by Criterion. For some reason they do often not produce a
> >correct 2:3 pulldown that can be reversed properly.
> >At least not using a Faroudja (which is very robust) or
> >a sofware player on PC. Can anyone get pictures out of
> >these discs without motion artifacts?
> > Michel Hafner
>
> I have not watched that title, so this is just a guess. Many of the
> older films were transferred overseas in PAL or SECAM, so a standards
> conversion would be necessary. Most standards conversions mix fields
> to some degree, making pulldown removal impossible, therefore the
> title has to be encoded as video. This would cause major problems
> with progressive players (or your Faroudja, etc.).

Hello there!
No, these are new transfers made on a Spirit. I really don't think they
were made in PAL and then converted to NTSC. The artifacts are not there
all the time. The problems pop up and go away in the middle of shots, as
if the inverse telecine before MPEG encoding failed randomly from time to
time. Some stuff seems to be on the disc as 24p, other parts as 60i and it
switches randomly.
Michel Hafner


A possible explanation for the combing?

Isn't DEI's Sahib Bibi Aur Gulam interlaced?
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rana
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:22 pm 
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arsh wrote:
[Rana why dont u check TAAL and report it here. It will help us ]Hmm!! LOL, ask Hafner to check, Taal, he reviewed TAAL, calling it AS BAD AS IT GETS, PROG, VIDEO LOOKING TRANSFER? I am sure!! Hafner will be able to PRODUCE simillar shots from TAAL, sp edition , he has!

Me, for sure, saw Combing in TAAL with 24fps transfer!!! :baaa:

My EROS Taal DVD gives no combing in Force Weave.

Are you sure, you have the genuine DVD. It is anamorphic and have quite a bit of extras. It also has additional song Kya Dekh Rahe Ho Tum (in extras, I think). Remember lots of pirates came out with EROS art work on them.

Rana



Edited By rana on 1048602475
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Zoran009
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 4:10 pm 
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Ok, rana, on casual viewing, you wont see it..I was the one who claimed included Taal into eros prog bunch, it is 24fps, my dvd can never be pirated(shartiya)...I'll take some screen shots and then you should try to reproduce the changes in those shots in your dvd, then only, I can convince u!!
I just checked this dvd after reading michael hafner review, to be terrible!!

In the mean time, Hafner to the rescue! Lol, agar nahin dikhta tou...cheers!

It is LITEARALLY DISSECTING dvd to create that, on gENERAL viewing, it looks fine, yaar!



Edited By arsh on 1048611117
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sknath
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:56 pm 
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Toh Der Kisliye Arsh miyan... post them ASAP ! .. But I wont be disappointed if Taal has them... cos the next alternative is Shemaroo which is definately gonna have them !

Ali what is ur take on this occurence ?.. If I am not mistaken, you had started this phenomenon of identifying DVDs as progressive or Interlaced by the appearance of combing in the old forums !



Edited By sknath on 1048615155
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rana
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:04 pm 
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Taal DVD:

Michel Hefner's Taal review:

"needs to be re-mastered once again. This time to videophile standards with state of the art equipment."

Now Shemaroo has remastered it.
Instead of Videophille standards, I'm sure it is Videomode standard (Interlaced).
Shemaroo do have state of the art equipment though.

Rana

BTW, Arsh, please post the cover scan as well to see which version you have.
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Zoran009
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:05 pm 
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I'll yaar, as soon, as I get ali?
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rana
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 7:16 pm 
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Arsh, I'm still waiting for the screen caps showing combing in Taal. I didn't detect combing in my Taal in Force Weave.

Rana
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Zoran009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 7:26 pm 
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I sent some shots to ali, for review and possible posting..Unfortunately, I could only send half of my file and lost half with computer glitch, I'll be sending him, a few more, have to cature them, after dissecting this dVD!

I am on it...

In the mean time was waiting a responce from MIKE! :baaa:

This is my favourite part of Hafner's review of TAAL:

The film master used is pretty clean and image steadiness is good as well. No complaints in this regard. Contrast rendition is unsatisfactory. Images are way too contrasty and not optimised for video. Shadow detail is not available and bright image parts tend to become featureless patches.

(((The whole transfer actually looks not like 8 bit video but more like 6 bit.))))

The colour rendition confirms this impression. While the basic hues might be more or less accurate (I have not seen a 35mm print for comparison) colours show little shading detail, look often cartoony and over-saturated, sometimes very much so. Faces appear doughy.



Edited By arsh on 1048706964
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