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INDIAN Audio DD EX 6.1?? - Is it really 6.1 on DVD??

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rana

Post subject: INDIAN Audio DD EX 6.1?? - Is it really 6.1 on DVD??

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:41 pm

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2001 7:27 pm
Posts: 6143

Got my Indian DVD. Theatrically, it sure was DD 6.1 or/ and DTS 6.1. But, is it possible to get 6.1 audio from this DVD if it has 6.1??
What is involved to extract 6.1 audio from a DVD??
If DVD is DD 6.1, and the audio set up is DD 5.1, where is the 6th track routed??

Zulm review stated the following (I agree):
http://www.zulm.net/modules....order=0

Good
- fuller aspect ratio maintained and anamorphic enhanced
- dynamic, lively Dolby Digital 5.1 sound track (although don't have the equipment to test the 6.1 claim on the cover, possibly DD-EX encoded)
- extras: 2 extras songs, and promotional interview section
- forum threads here
Bad
- poorly sourced video on DVD, video source, blemishes abundant
- washed out colours, no vibrancy present
- lacking sharpness for what is an anamorphic enhanced DVD
- DNR and compression problems

Rana

P.S.
1) BTW, I think DEVDAS PQ is better than this DVD.
2) Ali, do you think the old forum thread should be merged here or vice versa??
http://www.zulm.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=2109

Edited By rana on 1038426427

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Zoran009

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:49 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2001 5:53 pm
Posts: 14989

u wont be able to hear!! you have to have a 6.1 decoder built in, to get that extra channel, other wise info goes to ur reg surround..indian is not flagged!! so it does not select auto 6.1..most of hollywood titles in 6.1 are not flagged properly either!! LOTR..extended version has7.1 sound!!wow!!

indian dvd is a good package for iw price!!not bad! good songs/action/dynamics

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Sanjay

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:01 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 1:14 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: National Capital Region (India)

arsh wrote:

There is no such thing as 7.1 sound, atleast not yet. Although some Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES Receivers & Decoders use two speakers for the 6th (surround back) channel to create a better surround sound field.

Dolby Digital EX is a 5.1 format which has 5.1 discreet channels and a matrixed (in the surround L/R channels) 6th surround back channel, which in the absence of a Dolby Digital EX decoder is routed to the surround L/R channels. DTS ES is a 5.1 channel format similar to the Dolby Digital EX format which requires a DTS ES decoder to be able to decode the 6th (surround back) matrixed channel. DTS ES 6.1 discreet on the other hand is a discreet 6.1 channel format which requires an appropriate DTS ES 6.1 decoder, in the absence of which the 6th (surround back) channel is routed to the surround L/R channels.

By the way it is possible to get 6.1 sound (Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES 5.1 matrixed only) without a Dolby Digital EX or DTS ES decoder built in. For this, you would need a Dolby Digital decoder plus an additional Dolby Pro Logic decoder. What you would do is route the surround Left/Right channel from the Dolby Digital decoder pre outs thru the Left/Right channel pre inputs of the additional Dolby Pro Logic decoder. The Dolby Pro Logic decoder would decode the matrixed signal and route the appropriate signals to the surround Left/Right/Back speakers, much like the front Left/Right/Center channels in a Dolby Pro Logic setup. Believe me, it works. In the early days of Dolby Digital EX, before I bought the Denon AVR5800 I experimented with my setup and quite succesfully recreated Dolby Digital EX with my old receiver (Denon AVR5700 a 5.1 Dolby Digital receiver) and an old Pioneer Dolby Prologic Receiver.

As far as the Indian DVD is concerned I have not tested it myself but I seriously doubt that Eros has done anything special in the DVD authoring to make it in Dolby Digital EX. The idiots at Eros probably just assumed, probably quite rightly that since the theatrical prints of Indian were in Dolby Digital EX the DVD transfer automatically would also be so. Logically to me it makes sense. But since they (Eros) are idiots, they don't know that they have to flag the DVD appropriately. Could someone who has the appropriate Dolby Digital EX setup and the Indian DVD verify this?

Indian Films released theatrically in Dolby Digital EX:
1. Aankhon Mein Sapne Lyie
2. Albela
3. Alibaba
4. Avgat
5. Bichhoo
6. Devan
7. Dil Pe Mat Le Yaar
8. Gadar- Ek Prem Katha
9. Indian
10. Jungle
11. Lajja
12. Mission Kashmir
13. Na Tum Jaano Na Hum
14. One 2 Ka Four
15. Pyaar Kiya Nahin Jata
16. Refugee
17. Yeh Raaste Hain Pyaar Ke

Edited By Sanjay on 1038435092

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DragunR2

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 11:03 pm

Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2001 3:16 am
Posts: 4259

Some DD 5.1 mixes, even if they aren't official EX mixes, can be decoded to have a center surround channel with an EX decoder. This can have the disadvantage of collapsing sounds that are meant to be spread out into the center, but it can also be an interesting effect.

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Zoran009

Post subject:

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 12:21 am

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2001 5:53 pm
Posts: 14989

it depends how you say that, u can dd 5.1 ex as 6.1..matrix though.

you can call 6.1 discrete only dts though 7.1..btw!! i know my terms..u can make 2 channels into 7.1 if use thx ultra 2 recievers!!!just take a look, it is pseudo but good, 5.1 becomes thatway toooo...

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Sanjay

Post subject:

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:45 am

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 1:14 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: National Capital Region (India)

arsh wrote:

Just because you have seven speakers does not make it a seven channel system. The so called seventh channel that you are referring to is nothing but a second speaker connected parallely to the surround back channel. Why do you think a Dolby Prologic system is referred to as a 4 channel system even though there are 5 speakers? The reason for it is that the surround channel is in mono and the two surround speakers are just being run parallely with each other, carrying the exact same sound in both speakers. The same way in systems like the Denon AVR 5800/5803, which is what I happen to use, even though there are seven speaker outputs, there is still only 6 channels and the so called seventh channel you refer to is nothing but a second speaker in the back being parallely run with back surround speaker, without any processing and therefore the two back speakers have the same exact sound. I repeat, there is no such thing as a 7.1 channel system, this is something you are welcome to verify from Dolby and/or DTS or for that matter Denon who were the first to put seven channels of amplification and seven speaker outputs in their high end Receivers.

Arsh bhai, I mean no offense but you do have some of your terms mixed up and when you say "u can make 2 channels into 7.1 if you use thx ultra 2 recievers", that is totally incorrect. Regarding pseudo systems with digital processing, sorry they cannot be included in these terminologies. Also in your original post you claim that the Collector's edition of the "Lord Of the rings" has 7.1 sound, which is absolutely incorrect, since what it has is Dolby Digital EX and DTS 6.1 discreet sound. Even if we were to take into account your understanding of 7.1 channels, albeit pseudo and created by the decoder, even then it cannot be said that the DVD has 7.1 sound. In fact by your logic any and all DVDs have 7.1 sound when played thru a Receiver that has outputs for seven speakers.
In closing let me remind you, that in theaters there are numerous speakers used for surround Left/Right and in the case of DD EX and DTS ES several surround back speakers as well, but I don't know of any theater that claims to have sound that is 7.1 or 8.1 or 9.1 or 10.1.... you get the picture.

Edited By Sanjay on 1038507302

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congress

Post subject:

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 2:01 pm

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:29 am
Posts: 1028
Location: Singapore

Sanjay wrote:

Indian Films released theatrically in Dolby Digital EX:
1. Aankhon Mein Sapne Lyie
2. Albela
3. Alibaba
4. Avgat
5. Bichhoo
6. Devan
7. Dil Pe Mat Le Yaar
8. Gadar- Ek Prem Katha
9. Indian
10. Jungle
11. Lajja
12. Mission Kashmir
13. Na Tum Jaano Na Hum
14. One 2 Ka Four
15. Pyaar Kiya Nahin Jata
16. Refugee
17. Yeh Raaste Hain Pyaar Ke

This is news to me!! I had no idea that this films were in DD 6.1 except for Indian and Dil Pe Mat Le Yaar....but Sanjay you forgot about Dillagi which was DD EX too...

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rana

Post subject:

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 2:35 pm

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2001 7:27 pm
Posts: 6143

Sanjay wrote:

By the way it is possible to get 6.1 sound (Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES 5.1 matrixed only) without a Dolby Digital EX or DTS ES decoder built in. For this, you would need a Dolby Digital decoder plus an additional Dolby Pro Logic decoder. What you would do is route the surround Left/Right channel from the Dolby Digital decoder pre outs thru the Left/Right channel pre inputs of the additional Dolby Pro Logic decoder. The Dolby Pro Logic decoder would decode the matrixed signal and route the appropriate signals to the surround Left/Right/Back speakers, much like the front Left/Right/Center channels in a Dolby Pro Logic setup. Believe me, it works. In the early days of Dolby Digital EX, before I bought the Denon AVR5800 I experimented with my setup and quite succesfully recreated Dolby Digital EX with my old receiver (Denon AVR5700 a 5.1 Dolby Digital receiver) and an old Pioneer Dolby Prologic Receiver.

As far as the Indian DVD is concerned I have not tested it myself but I seriously doubt that Eros has done anything special in the DVD authoring to make it in Dolby Digital EX. The idiots at Eros probably just assumed, probably quite rightly that since the theatrical prints of Indian were in Dolby Digital EX the DVD transfer automatically would also be so. Logically to me it makes sense. But since they (Eros) are idiots, they don't know that they have to flag the DVD appropriately. Could someone who has the appropriate Dolby Digital EX setup and the Indian DVD verify this?

Thanks Sanjay for detailing how to get DD EX using our obsolete (not any more) Prologic decoder, provided DVD has flags set for DD EX.

EROS DVDs PQ may not be good, but their audio has been excellent. On INDIAN DVD cover they state it to be first Indian Film (may be they say DVD) in DD EX. It may very well be DD EX DVD??

Rana

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Sanjay

Post subject:

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 6:13 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 1:14 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: National Capital Region (India)

congress wrote:

This is news to me!! I had no idea that this films were in DD 6.1 except for Indian and Dil Pe Mat Le Yaar....but Sanjay you forgot about Dillagi which was DD EX too...

Actually, I got this list of Dolby Digital EX films from the official Dolby site and Dillagi is not listed. Personally I myself doubt that most of these listed films were in Dolby Digital EX but since Dolby lists them as being so, I suppose we have to take their word for it.

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Sanjay

Post subject:

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 6:20 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 1:14 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: National Capital Region (India)

rana wrote:

Thanks Sanjay for detailing how to get DD EX using our obsolete (not any more) Prologic decoder, provided DVD has flags set for DD EX.

Rana

Thanks Rana. By the way do keep in mind that in the speaker settings of the Dolby Prologic Reciever you select the 3 speaker option, ie. Front Left, Center, Front Right, for the rear/surround speakers set it as None.

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Zoran009

Post subject:

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 10:00 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2001 5:53 pm
Posts: 14989

ok!! SANJAY!! i READ YOUR POST!! IN DETAIL!!AND TRIED TO UNDERSTAND TOO!!

SEEMS LIKE YOU WERE GOING AROUND THE SAME FACTS IN YOUR OWN WAY!!THATS MAKE YOU PUNDIT IN THAT!!NP!!

IT DOES NOT MATTER TO ME!

DOLBY PROLOGIC IS 4 CHANNELS INDEED!
THX MADE IT PSEUDO 5.1 CHANNEL..MATRIXED..YES FACT.TILL

DOLBY SURROUND.

PCM.

STEREO.

DD...CAME IN WITH DISCRETE 5.1 AND DTS ALSO WITH DISCRETE 5.1.

THEN CONFUSION CAME....DTS ES MATRIX, DTS ES DISCRETE,
DD EX(MATRIX) ..DD DOES NOT HAVE DISCRETE!!

I ASSUME YOU UNDERSTAND THOSE TERMS!!YOU JUST DONT HAVE A PROG SCAN DVD PLAYER AND PROG SCAN HDTV..REST YOU SEEM FINE!

NOW THERE IS HK/Mark Levinson/Lexicon VERSION OF LOGIC 7 TOO..THAT IS PSEUDO MATRIXED VERSION.(btw..I have logic 7 in my car!!!)

THERE IS DTS NEO..5.1, 6.1, NOW 7.1...I HOPE YOU KNOW THAT..MATRIXED..KINDA DSP MODES!!LIKE YAMAHA DOES THAT!! 2 FRONT EFFECT CHANNELS TOO..THAT U NEED SPEAKERS AND AMPLIFIER FOR..AND R MATRIXED!

THERE WAS THX ULTRA, NOW THX ULTRA II....

THEN THERE IS SONY'S THEATRICAL SDDS, THAT CAN BE DOWN MIXED TO 5.1/OR EX????

THERE ARE HIGH END COMPANIES THEY ARE CLAIMING TO CREATE 10.1 MATRIXED..IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT UR DVD IS ENCODED IN 10.1 CHANNELS..IT IS BASICALLY PUTTING TWO 5.1 SYSTEM MAKING THEM SYNCHORANISED MATRIXED!!

NOW..SO PLS SEE IF U CAN PICK EACH OF THESE TERMS AND GIVE US TECHNICAL/AND LAYMAN COHERENT DEFINITIONS...AND WE WILL ALL AGREE TO THAT..IF VALID!!

SO GOING AROUND THE SAME THING IN A DIFFERENT WAY WILL STOP AND IT WILL HELP ME TOO TO CORRECT MY GRAVE MISCONCEPTIONS TOO!!

BTW!!I DO HAVE YEH DILLAGI DVD...SUNNY SUPERSOUND..IT DOES SAY IN CREDITS IN THE END DD EX!!I'LL DOUBLE CHECK! THOUGH!?

THE REST OF THE LIST IS MOST WELCOME!!BUT!

HINDI FILM MAKER DO NOT KNOW HOW TO RECORD THEIR 5.1 SOUNDS PROPERLY MOST OF THE TIME..THEIR REMIXES ARE NOT DONE EFFECTIVELY ACCORDING TO GENRE OF THE FILM.

HINDI DVDS..THEY CAN NOT GET THEIR DD 5.1 RIGHT..MOST OF THE TIME!!WHAT YOU EXPECT FROM THEM..DTS ES DISCRETE! HA HA! :bangbang:

???

Edited By arsh on 1038589518

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congress

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 8:03 am

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:29 am
Posts: 1028
Location: Singapore

Sanjay wrote:

congress wrote:

This is news to me!! I had no idea that this films were in DD 6.1 except for Indian and Dil Pe Mat Le Yaar....but Sanjay you forgot about Dillagi which was DD EX too...

Sanjay, According to my sources I don't think most of the films you listed are in DD EX. Mission Kashmir definitely no...but Dillagi yes, even the credits have mentioned...

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rana

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 4:27 pm

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2001 7:27 pm
Posts: 6143

Which forthcoming movies are in the pipeline for DD-EX or DTS-ES with High octane audio. That is, not only DD-EX/ DTS-ES, but also where it is made use of aggressively.

Thanks.

Rana

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Zoran009

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 4:49 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2001 5:53 pm
Posts: 14989

You mean in Hollywood Rana ji!!!?

I have never seen a hindi film in DTS ES!! and will never prob will!!

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Sanjay

Post subject:

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 10:21 am

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 1:14 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: National Capital Region (India)

congress wrote:

Sanjay, According to my sources I don't think most of the films you listed are in DD EX. Mission Kashmir definitely no...but Dillagi yes, even the credits have mentioned...

As mentioned by me earlier I got the list from the official Dolby site and I had also mentioned, that personally I doubt the accuracy of the list but since Dolby ought to know better regarding this, we have to take their word for it. Then again maybe we should not take their word for it.

Edited By Sanjay on 1038739925

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